General Discussion

I am thinking about reading it. Tell me if you like it or not and why. Also, would you recommend?

And also... what book should I start on? lol

I like the world building in particular. How everything's set up and all that. I think that it's actually more sci fi than fantasy is what intrigues me-the dragons are genetically altered and the riders are descended (as are all Pernese humans) from the original colonists who had to make the dragons to help fight thread. @Pardra has read way more books than I have and can give you a much better idea on what to expect/where to begin and so forth.

I kind of didn't realize any order so I've read several that were out of order. The rarer dragon colors tend to get the most focus, which can be kind of annoying at times.

@ashotinthedark

Ah, thank you! Yeah, I heard from reviewers that is was definitely more sci-fi. How much focus is on the dragons themselves? Because I am much more interested in the dragons than the humans lol


And I also heard that there was some misogynistic things going on.. how much of it? And is it because of when the book were written or the (I think) medieval setting?

Its...more human based. Part of it being that most dragons will only talk to their riders or other dragons.

Yes, there's some misogyny due to the society*-there was a plague which resulted in a lot of people dying and society decided that women could only be (mostly) wives. It's actually part of a plot to one of the books that a woman is looking to become a Harper and faces a lot of crap from her family and others (but has some good allies, one of which is the MasterHarper himself) and eventually succeeds.

Part of the issue with Pernese society goes back to the original colonists. While they were far more egalitarian, they deliberately settled a planet with few resources to avoid an industrial and technological society. Making the dragons from fire lizards was okay as it was seen as giving their descendants a way to fight thread and not rely on technology. Unfortunately, due to what they wanted and their shortsightedness, Pernese society deviated quite a bit from what the colonists originally wanted. Pernese society is a very strict class society with little room for compromise. The dragonriders are more liberal in a sense that they also deviate from Pernese norms due to the affect of the dragons and the bond they share.

Another part of the issue was that the first time the colonists were made aware of the threat of thread, they had to scramble to the northern continent to survive. Said continent has a lot of caves to hide in and they lost most of what little technology they had as a result.

Their descendants had to figure out how plagues worked-stuff like incubation time, how it spread and so forth.

*I believe there was some accidental misogyny on the part of the author back when she started. She also had some uh...messed up thoughts on gay people, but in later novels changed course and no longer believed what she originally believed. Gay people were a thing since the beginning, just her thoughts on how people are gay (or become so according to her) were messed up. But like I mentioned before, she got better about it.

@ashotinthedark

Oh no, I am gay! Well, it kind of makes sense, considering the time the books were published in. Glad she did get better! How was it represented in the older books compared to the newer ones? Examples would be cool.

Sorry about all the questions lol. I'll stop if you want

@ashotinthedark

And if the dragons were a product of a genetic experiment... does that mean the dragons have no personality? I know that's screwed up to say, but what I mean is, is that do they have a heart and a soul? I am not sure if what I just said made sense...

And I heard about the whole "mating" thing and how some people thought that was messed up? DO you think it is?

So many questions-well to start, the older books had this thing with gay men in particular. Basically, two guys get together during a mating flight they turn gay.

Later books have changed it in a few ways-one being that no one turns gay and two the dragon decides the rider complies (which is where the questionable part comes in). The psychic bond is so strong that riders do lose a lot of self control due to being overwhelmed by the dragons mating. On top of that, even those that aren't riders can be affected if the mating flight happens around them-but it's thankfully far lesser than what the riders themselves go through.

Later books also include more green women riders and have at least one blue woman rider. Due to the plague (there were 3 but the first had such a massive impact on Pernese society), women were hidden away as to not be taken to see if they'd Impress a dragon and become a rider. It's a plot point as to why there was such an imbalance. Later books also make more effort to not only focus on the golds and bronzes (and their riders). There's a book out there with a female blue rider and she has a female lover (Who I think rides a green? Not sure-haven't read it but I saw a synopsis on it).

There's colors and those determine rank, rarity and size. They also determine the rider's gender.

Golds are queens and at the top. They're also the rarest and largest. Then there's bronze dragons, which are male and second rarest (and 2nd largest). They're the most likely to catch a mating flight queen. Next are browns, which can catch a mating queen but is very unlikely-smaller than bronzes and male. Then there's blues, which are male and smaller still and finally greens, which are the smallest and female. Blues and greens make up about 50% of all dragons and the greens can't breed (supposedly). They still do mating flights however.

Golds always have women riders. Greens can have either men or women. Blues have mostly male riders, but a masculine woman could be paired with one. Browns and Bronzes only have male riders from my understanding.

The dragons have personality just like the human counterparts. They're not machines anymore than their riders.

Do I think it is? Yeah, I do. The idea of losing control of myself is horrifying...but I suspect that most that live in Weyrs had to come to some sort of understanding about it. There's people that live in the Weyrs that aren't riders but do other things. Some of them are very willing to 'help' riders during mating flights, so there is an attempt at trying to mitigate the more nastier side of it. There's also that the riders themselves don't raise their kids; instead the Weyrfolk do. It's so that the kids don't get attached to their parents and mourn them if they die fighting thread as well as to maintain a degree of meritocracy in the Weyr.

Another issue is that the dragons were quickly created and due to losing a lot of their already limited tech, the colonists couldn't iron out that particular kink and thus it became part of Weyr society. That part of it also horrifies most Pernese people as they're very conservative in nature....though you don't have to be so to be squicked out about it.

@ashotinthedark

So there is a lesbian POV?

Yes, the idea of loosing yourself because a dragon mates is terrifying! That is like... pretty much no consent!

The universe seems very complicated, I hope I can get used to it! I also heard about when a dragon or rider dies, the other commits suicide? That is a strong bond!

I am going to bed I will reply tomorrow, thank you! :D

Yeah there's a few books with Xhinna, who is the blue rider (looking on the wiki). There's Dragongirl, Dragon's Time and Sky Dragons that have her in them.

It is a complicated universe definitely! Yes, usually that happens-dragons in particular were engineered to be dependent on humans for existence-if a dragon isn't Impressed, it goes between to die. Loss of a rider means going between for the dragon-unless said dragon is a gold on a nest. After the eggs hatch then she'd go between to die.

Humans do generally commit suicide on the dragon's death, but not always. Survivors are usually traumatized from it, but some still carry on despite that.

I was summoned.

I prefer, when I do my re-reads of the series, to start with Dragonsdawn. However, if it's your first time reading, I do recommend starting with Dragonflight. It's both the best and the worst, that is, you'll get the full brunt of the squickiest writing and inconsistencies starting with the original trilogy as they're much older than the other books. Interestingly, some of these issues can be explained away by pointing out that the first three books were actually cobbled together from multiple interrelated short stories Anne wrote. For some reason, I think the stories were just pasted into the new writing rather than being re-written to be more cohesive with the "book" writing.

I actually wrote basically an entire essay on my issues with Pern, but Random's basically mentioned them all. Consent, the handling of homosexuality, and the strict roles for both human and dragon.

Todd's books aren't as bad as people make it out to be. The very rapid changes of long-standing norms on Pern does rankle though, and all of his main characters seem very Sue-ish. Kindan is a woobie and his life is one constant tragedy after another, but at least everything female wants to bang him and he winds up in a poly (I think. At least one is pregnant with his baby while the other one is involved with him. Still, citation needed) relationship with the two other Sue characters?

(Oh, and focusing POVs almost entirely on golds and bronzes. It makes sense given they're the highest order of dragons and riders so they're the ones that get stuff done, but... given greens are 50% of the population I would expect to see them more often! You'd think bronzes and golds were the most common colors for how often we see blues and greens!)