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TOPIC | Community Update, May 2016
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@Daddyselephant@Aeranautics@Thardus
Ya, my idea wasn't the best. I should've thought about it before posting.
@Daddyselephant@Aeranautics@Thardus
Ya, my idea wasn't the best. I should've thought about it before posting.
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Also, I find it funny how people keep referring to the whole thing about harassment and exalting as "a new rule."

The rule has always been in place. It's just that when anti-exalters create secret blacklists of and bully people who exalted dragons that they gave away, something had to be said. On the other side, a lot of pro-exalters would "punish" the antis by adopting/buying/whatever their dragons and exalting them because, once again, the rule has always been "if a dragon is out of your lair, you can't control what happens to it." Even if the seller/giver of the dragon says "You may not exalt/resell/give this dragon hideous apparel/etc".


I have a question: say someone is giving dragons away for free/dirt cheap. They ask in the OP of their thread that the dragons not be exalted. Would it be considered harassment if a user adopted some dragons for the express purpose of profiting them via exalting?

The exalter wasn't intending to upset the seller; they simply saw some free/dirt cheap dragons and decided "I can make an easy buck off of them." Would it be considered harassment if the same exalter went to other users and adopted free/cheap dragons for the express purpose of exalting for profit, against the seller's wishes?
Also, I find it funny how people keep referring to the whole thing about harassment and exalting as "a new rule."

The rule has always been in place. It's just that when anti-exalters create secret blacklists of and bully people who exalted dragons that they gave away, something had to be said. On the other side, a lot of pro-exalters would "punish" the antis by adopting/buying/whatever their dragons and exalting them because, once again, the rule has always been "if a dragon is out of your lair, you can't control what happens to it." Even if the seller/giver of the dragon says "You may not exalt/resell/give this dragon hideous apparel/etc".


I have a question: say someone is giving dragons away for free/dirt cheap. They ask in the OP of their thread that the dragons not be exalted. Would it be considered harassment if a user adopted some dragons for the express purpose of profiting them via exalting?

The exalter wasn't intending to upset the seller; they simply saw some free/dirt cheap dragons and decided "I can make an easy buck off of them." Would it be considered harassment if the same exalter went to other users and adopted free/cheap dragons for the express purpose of exalting for profit, against the seller's wishes?
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@Aeranautics

You're right. A dragon could become trapped. An exalt lock would permanently disable one of your lair spaces while the dragon is in your possession. One of the issues this could cause is if your lair is full and you need to hatch a nest, but you can't because of this dragon that you probably don't even want. If you wanted to hatch your nest, you'd either have to exalt or sell dragons that you wanted to keep. Or try to find a person to take this exalt-locked dragon off your hands, but then you're only passing the burden onto someone else. Let's not even consider how bad it'd be if you had multiple non-exaltable dragons in your lair.

As someone who does train and exalt a lot of dragons, I can confirm how difficult it'd be to work with unexaltable dragons. If there was no one to take the dragon off your hands, you'd be out of luck. Those types of dragons would cut your profits dramatically. And you're right about dominance being more difficult with this suggested mechanic.

Lair space is a finite commodity. So we need to be able to exalt any dragon in our lair if we so choose. Besides, exalting is considered an honor for dragons. If one wanted to, I'm sure an exalted dragon could be worked into lore.

@Aeranautics

You're right. A dragon could become trapped. An exalt lock would permanently disable one of your lair spaces while the dragon is in your possession. One of the issues this could cause is if your lair is full and you need to hatch a nest, but you can't because of this dragon that you probably don't even want. If you wanted to hatch your nest, you'd either have to exalt or sell dragons that you wanted to keep. Or try to find a person to take this exalt-locked dragon off your hands, but then you're only passing the burden onto someone else. Let's not even consider how bad it'd be if you had multiple non-exaltable dragons in your lair.

As someone who does train and exalt a lot of dragons, I can confirm how difficult it'd be to work with unexaltable dragons. If there was no one to take the dragon off your hands, you'd be out of luck. Those types of dragons would cut your profits dramatically. And you're right about dominance being more difficult with this suggested mechanic.

Lair space is a finite commodity. So we need to be able to exalt any dragon in our lair if we so choose. Besides, exalting is considered an honor for dragons. If one wanted to, I'm sure an exalted dragon could be worked into lore.

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[quote name="Aeranautics" date=2016-05-22 21:32:34] I have a question: say someone is giving dragons away for free/dirt cheap. They ask in the OP of their thread that the dragons not be exalted. Would it be considered harassment if a user adopted some dragons for the express purpose of profiting them via exalting? The exalter wasn't intending to upset the seller; they simply saw some free/dirt cheap dragons and decided "I can make an easy buck off of them." Would it be considered harassment if the same exalter went to other users and adopted free/cheap dragons for the express purpose of exalting for profit, against the seller's wishes? [/quote] @Aeranautics A good question. I think you could potentially run into problems if you're purposefully going into threads that are free adoptions to simply exalt a dragon immediately. Don't hold me to any of this, but I'm pretty sure it's the intent that matters most when it comes to what's considered harassment. So I'd air on the side of not instantly exalting dragons you adopt from a free thread just to be safe. Maybe ask one of the mods. They'd be the best to answer that type of question. Though, I think I might have seen a question similar to yours somewhere on one of the previous pages to the thread if your interested in some digging.
Aeranautics wrote on 2016-05-22:
I have a question: say someone is giving dragons away for free/dirt cheap. They ask in the OP of their thread that the dragons not be exalted. Would it be considered harassment if a user adopted some dragons for the express purpose of profiting them via exalting?

The exalter wasn't intending to upset the seller; they simply saw some free/dirt cheap dragons and decided "I can make an easy buck off of them." Would it be considered harassment if the same exalter went to other users and adopted free/cheap dragons for the express purpose of exalting for profit, against the seller's wishes?

@Aeranautics

A good question. I think you could potentially run into problems if you're purposefully going into threads that are free adoptions to simply exalt a dragon immediately. Don't hold me to any of this, but I'm pretty sure it's the intent that matters most when it comes to what's considered harassment. So I'd air on the side of not instantly exalting dragons you adopt from a free thread just to be safe. Maybe ask one of the mods. They'd be the best to answer that type of question. Though, I think I might have seen a question similar to yours somewhere on one of the previous pages to the thread if your interested in some digging.
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@Aeranautics [quote name="Aequorin" date=2016-05-20 12:44:02] [quote name="Doggo" date=2016-05-20 12:38:22] Does that mean we can go into the free dragons thread for free fodder? [/quote] we also consider abuse of our stance to be harassment as well. [br] [quote]Seeking out players who have conditions for the dragons and expressly going against those to upset them (i.e. taking advantage of our stance) is harassment.[/quote] [/quote]
@Aeranautics
Aequorin wrote on 2016-05-20:
Doggo wrote on 2016-05-20:
Does that mean we can go into the free dragons thread for free fodder?

we also consider abuse of our stance to be harassment as well.

Quote:
Seeking out players who have conditions for the dragons and expressly going against those to upset them (i.e. taking advantage of our stance) is harassment.
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@Shinko

Sorry I am a couple of days late. Most of the issue comes from people who dislike seeing unnamed in their offspring list despite being able to prevent that by simply namingthe dragons upon hatching. What other people were pointing out, and I have done this before, is that there are a great many names that for one reason or another, people don't want to see on their offspring lists, but they can't prevent that even by naming the dragons, the dragons can still be renamed.

For the most part, I don't like 'cute' names like booplesnoot, or real life names, or fandom names etc.. on my lists because I like more 'fantasy' themed names. If others want to rename the dragons I sell to one of those names I don't want to see, that is their right once I sold the dragon.

I don't think anyone is simmering about those names, it just seems slightly unfair (can't think of a better word) to me when people complain about something preventable, yet they can't seem to understand that others have the same feelings about other names and would prefer not to see them on the offspring lists but the only way to prevent it is to exalt the dragons themselves. I name all my dragons before I sell them, except in special cases, and there is nothing I can do if someone wanted to rename one of the dragons I sold. (and since I don't often look at my offspring lists, I don't care that much)

Real life names is just one of the things often mentioned, not because there is anything wrong with them, but simply because some people wish to have a different 'theme' to their dragon lists and would prefer them to not show up. However, they are perfectly valid names and there is nothing (nor should there be) anything a person can do to prevent a dragon being named that once it is out of their lair.
@Shinko

Sorry I am a couple of days late. Most of the issue comes from people who dislike seeing unnamed in their offspring list despite being able to prevent that by simply namingthe dragons upon hatching. What other people were pointing out, and I have done this before, is that there are a great many names that for one reason or another, people don't want to see on their offspring lists, but they can't prevent that even by naming the dragons, the dragons can still be renamed.

For the most part, I don't like 'cute' names like booplesnoot, or real life names, or fandom names etc.. on my lists because I like more 'fantasy' themed names. If others want to rename the dragons I sell to one of those names I don't want to see, that is their right once I sold the dragon.

I don't think anyone is simmering about those names, it just seems slightly unfair (can't think of a better word) to me when people complain about something preventable, yet they can't seem to understand that others have the same feelings about other names and would prefer not to see them on the offspring lists but the only way to prevent it is to exalt the dragons themselves. I name all my dragons before I sell them, except in special cases, and there is nothing I can do if someone wanted to rename one of the dragons I sold. (and since I don't often look at my offspring lists, I don't care that much)

Real life names is just one of the things often mentioned, not because there is anything wrong with them, but simply because some people wish to have a different 'theme' to their dragon lists and would prefer them to not show up. However, they are perfectly valid names and there is nothing (nor should there be) anything a person can do to prevent a dragon being named that once it is out of their lair.

#UnnamedIsValid
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Change Unnamed in YOUR dragon's profile!
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I never had any problems?

Well, I sell exalt fodder, this is my main income,
so I would just hurt it by using "rules".

I do not even name my dragos, when I sell them,
it would be just strange anyway and too much work.

If I buy dragos, I might exalt them one day, but
only because I need some space.

It is yours to do as you please? That sounds
familiar to me. :)
I never had any problems?

Well, I sell exalt fodder, this is my main income,
so I would just hurt it by using "rules".

I do not even name my dragos, when I sell them,
it would be just strange anyway and too much work.

If I buy dragos, I might exalt them one day, but
only because I need some space.

It is yours to do as you please? That sounds
familiar to me. :)
I would like to add my voice to those disagreeing with the updated policy on dragons and exalting.

First, I recognise that this is not a democracy. I am in no way demanding that the developers/administrators change their policy or indeed take any action at all. However, I hope that they do care about the opinions of the community (and from all I've seen so far I have every reason to believe that this is the case), so it seems worth a few minutes of my time to voice my thoughts.

In short (as this is a wall of text), I find the current system to be unfair to sellers. Sellers' only reliable recourse is not to sell at all. By contrast, buyers can buy with impunity and without consequence. There is no practical way for sellers to limit their sales to the sub-population that they wish to sell to, while buyers have free choice. I don't agree with the statement that stipulating terms of sale constitutes harassment.

I can see that this is a thorny issue. I agree with the sentiments of the administrators in many respects. Specifically I agree that:
1) The ownership of dragons is transferred when they are sold, not tied to their place of hatching.
2) People should be allowed to do as they please with the dragons they own.
3) People should not be allowed to harass each other.
4) People should not have the authority to dictate how others play the game.

However, I disagree that dictating certain behaviours as part of the terms of sale is the same as controlling the way another person plays. Demanding that someone behave in a certain way is not the same as refusing to perform a service for them (i.e. selling a dragon) unless they behave in a certain way. The key difference is that terms of sale are conditional. I strongly disagree that demanding that a dragon you sell or give away not be exalted is harassment. Nothing is forcing the potential buyer to interact with you. There is no personal element to the demand. I cannot see anything morally wrong (and I consider the problem of harassment to be a moral one) with stipulating conditions of sale.

Beyond the moral dimension, there is one of practicality. Obviously terms such as non-exalting are unenforceable under the current system and I can't immediately think of a way to make them enforceable without causing all manner of other problems. Setting unenforceable terms on the sale of one's dragons inevitably leads to heartbreak for the seller. However, I don't think that forbidding sellers from making such demands solves this problem. Those who were already distressed by having their dragons exalted will still be distressed, and may now be labelled as harassing despite (in my opinion) doing nothing wrong. Those who weren't distressed aren't personally affected anyway. Obviously there are far too many dragon sales for the administrators to look into every case of hurt feelings individually, nor indeed am I sure that they should have that responsibility. It's not an easy one to solve, but I don't think the current "solution" helps at all, aside from possibly making the problem a little less visible.

I do think that it is wrong to buy from someone who does not want their dragons exalted with the express purpose of exalting, regardless of whether your intention is to hurt or simply to make a profit (although obviously the former is worse). It's dishonest and callous towards the feelings of others. Is this something the administrators should get involved with? Probably not, any more than they would get involved with any other case of people lying on the forums or generally being jerks. I think they are making the right call here in getting involved with only those cases where the behaviour is a targeted attack (harassment) and not those where it is just mildly antisocial behaviour (impersonal, not specifically intended to hurt). But I don't think that the moderators should be protecting those who are being jerks above those who are merely sensitive (even if excessively so).

Now, you may be saying, isn't it contradictory to say that people should be able to do what they like with the dragons that they have bought, but that it's wrong of them to exalt these "non-exalt" dragons? I disagree. The moral fault is not in exalting the dragon, it is in buying with the intent to exalt. If the seller would (explicitly) not have sold to you had they known your intentions, I feel that you have purchased the dragon on false pretences.

I am also actually not against the idea of blacklisting and calling people out for jerk-ish behaviour. I recognise that this is a problem because it can be abused and can encourage further abusive behaviour. For that reason, it may be wise of the administrators to forbid it altogether. However, in theory, this sort of name-and-shame behaviour is a way for a community to police itself against unpleasant behaviour that is below the level of what is important enough for staff to get involved with. The benefits are probably not worth the potential for abuse, but I don't think that calling people out publicly is necessarily and inherently a bad thing. Perhaps some highly regulated system could prevent abuse, but that would probably introduce a lot more work for the administrators.

What would I do to solve this issue? I'm not sure. It's complicated.
The ideal solution would allow people to stipulate conditions of trade and have some recourse to reverse the trade if the conditions were not upheld. This would be more fair to the seller than the current system. It would also be fair to the buyer if all conditions had to be set and acknowledged before trade, because they could always simply choose not to buy.
Unfortunately, the theory is non-trivial to put into practice.

But that's just my opinion.


Edit: Just a small note that I really ought to have remembered to put in the first time around - thank you to the developers/administrators for being concerned, self aware and proactive, even if I don't necessarily agree with all your choices!
I would like to add my voice to those disagreeing with the updated policy on dragons and exalting.

First, I recognise that this is not a democracy. I am in no way demanding that the developers/administrators change their policy or indeed take any action at all. However, I hope that they do care about the opinions of the community (and from all I've seen so far I have every reason to believe that this is the case), so it seems worth a few minutes of my time to voice my thoughts.

In short (as this is a wall of text), I find the current system to be unfair to sellers. Sellers' only reliable recourse is not to sell at all. By contrast, buyers can buy with impunity and without consequence. There is no practical way for sellers to limit their sales to the sub-population that they wish to sell to, while buyers have free choice. I don't agree with the statement that stipulating terms of sale constitutes harassment.

I can see that this is a thorny issue. I agree with the sentiments of the administrators in many respects. Specifically I agree that:
1) The ownership of dragons is transferred when they are sold, not tied to their place of hatching.
2) People should be allowed to do as they please with the dragons they own.
3) People should not be allowed to harass each other.
4) People should not have the authority to dictate how others play the game.

However, I disagree that dictating certain behaviours as part of the terms of sale is the same as controlling the way another person plays. Demanding that someone behave in a certain way is not the same as refusing to perform a service for them (i.e. selling a dragon) unless they behave in a certain way. The key difference is that terms of sale are conditional. I strongly disagree that demanding that a dragon you sell or give away not be exalted is harassment. Nothing is forcing the potential buyer to interact with you. There is no personal element to the demand. I cannot see anything morally wrong (and I consider the problem of harassment to be a moral one) with stipulating conditions of sale.

Beyond the moral dimension, there is one of practicality. Obviously terms such as non-exalting are unenforceable under the current system and I can't immediately think of a way to make them enforceable without causing all manner of other problems. Setting unenforceable terms on the sale of one's dragons inevitably leads to heartbreak for the seller. However, I don't think that forbidding sellers from making such demands solves this problem. Those who were already distressed by having their dragons exalted will still be distressed, and may now be labelled as harassing despite (in my opinion) doing nothing wrong. Those who weren't distressed aren't personally affected anyway. Obviously there are far too many dragon sales for the administrators to look into every case of hurt feelings individually, nor indeed am I sure that they should have that responsibility. It's not an easy one to solve, but I don't think the current "solution" helps at all, aside from possibly making the problem a little less visible.

I do think that it is wrong to buy from someone who does not want their dragons exalted with the express purpose of exalting, regardless of whether your intention is to hurt or simply to make a profit (although obviously the former is worse). It's dishonest and callous towards the feelings of others. Is this something the administrators should get involved with? Probably not, any more than they would get involved with any other case of people lying on the forums or generally being jerks. I think they are making the right call here in getting involved with only those cases where the behaviour is a targeted attack (harassment) and not those where it is just mildly antisocial behaviour (impersonal, not specifically intended to hurt). But I don't think that the moderators should be protecting those who are being jerks above those who are merely sensitive (even if excessively so).

Now, you may be saying, isn't it contradictory to say that people should be able to do what they like with the dragons that they have bought, but that it's wrong of them to exalt these "non-exalt" dragons? I disagree. The moral fault is not in exalting the dragon, it is in buying with the intent to exalt. If the seller would (explicitly) not have sold to you had they known your intentions, I feel that you have purchased the dragon on false pretences.

I am also actually not against the idea of blacklisting and calling people out for jerk-ish behaviour. I recognise that this is a problem because it can be abused and can encourage further abusive behaviour. For that reason, it may be wise of the administrators to forbid it altogether. However, in theory, this sort of name-and-shame behaviour is a way for a community to police itself against unpleasant behaviour that is below the level of what is important enough for staff to get involved with. The benefits are probably not worth the potential for abuse, but I don't think that calling people out publicly is necessarily and inherently a bad thing. Perhaps some highly regulated system could prevent abuse, but that would probably introduce a lot more work for the administrators.

What would I do to solve this issue? I'm not sure. It's complicated.
The ideal solution would allow people to stipulate conditions of trade and have some recourse to reverse the trade if the conditions were not upheld. This would be more fair to the seller than the current system. It would also be fair to the buyer if all conditions had to be set and acknowledged before trade, because they could always simply choose not to buy.
Unfortunately, the theory is non-trivial to put into practice.

But that's just my opinion.


Edit: Just a small note that I really ought to have remembered to put in the first time around - thank you to the developers/administrators for being concerned, self aware and proactive, even if I don't necessarily agree with all your choices!
@Gemset The admins have already stated that buying or taking dragons (whether free or not) from someone who does not wish them exalted with the express intent to exalt the dragon is considered to be abuse of their rules and is not to be done, and when this happens you need to speak to an admin and let them investigate.

This enforcement is in regard to people giving dragons to others and demanding they not be exalted under any circumstance. This applies to people who buy a dragon off of the Auction House and are messaged by the original "owner" of the dragon demanding that they not exalt it. This applies to people who have purchased or taken a dragon from another player who has requested the dragons not be exalted, and did not take them with intent to exalt, but sometime down the line they do end up exalting the dragon because of lair issues or they need money, whatever reason. The point remains that they did not take the dragon with intent to exalt, but after time they eventually do because that is the nature of the game.

Taking a dragon with intent of exalt =/ Happenstance exalt that will eventually happen.

Edit: I should clarify, you can't place rules on someone when they buy a dragon off of AH. It is free-for-all at that point. The abuse of admin rules factors in when both parties have a mutual agreement for a dragon trade to not exalt, and the receiving player immediately exalts the dragon. They are likely doing this to many other players as well, which is why it should be reported.
@Gemset The admins have already stated that buying or taking dragons (whether free or not) from someone who does not wish them exalted with the express intent to exalt the dragon is considered to be abuse of their rules and is not to be done, and when this happens you need to speak to an admin and let them investigate.

This enforcement is in regard to people giving dragons to others and demanding they not be exalted under any circumstance. This applies to people who buy a dragon off of the Auction House and are messaged by the original "owner" of the dragon demanding that they not exalt it. This applies to people who have purchased or taken a dragon from another player who has requested the dragons not be exalted, and did not take them with intent to exalt, but sometime down the line they do end up exalting the dragon because of lair issues or they need money, whatever reason. The point remains that they did not take the dragon with intent to exalt, but after time they eventually do because that is the nature of the game.

Taking a dragon with intent of exalt =/ Happenstance exalt that will eventually happen.

Edit: I should clarify, you can't place rules on someone when they buy a dragon off of AH. It is free-for-all at that point. The abuse of admin rules factors in when both parties have a mutual agreement for a dragon trade to not exalt, and the receiving player immediately exalts the dragon. They are likely doing this to many other players as well, which is why it should be reported.
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I have no idea why people are treating the exalt thing as if it was a new rule? From what I can gather it's always been there but is just taken more seriously now due to the harassment of both sides of the party on several different occasions
I have no idea why people are treating the exalt thing as if it was a new rule? From what I can gather it's always been there but is just taken more seriously now due to the harassment of both sides of the party on several different occasions
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