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TOPIC | Community Update, May 2016
[quote name="Alestrius" date=2016-05-21 15:38:06]
Edit: I guess the tl;dr of what I'm asking on point two -- if both buyer and seller agree on conditions explicitly stated at the time of sale during private transactions not through the AH, is this still okay, or does that constitute harassment?
[/quote]
@Alestrius
The update states that conditions cannot be present even in private messages.
@Aequorin Following up on the question above, the ambiguity of "play how the seller wants" as the defining factor here is tripping me up. What does that even mean? I get that making stipulations around exalting is out, that much is clear. But there are all kinds of conditions one might make around the sale or transfer of a dragon. What conditions constitute dictating how another person plays the game and what don't?
I dunno, this kind of smacks of babysitting to me, for the site to say that a seller and receiver can't decide the conditions of a dragon transfer ever, in any form. (Unless, I suppose, the person selling now phrases it in the form of a question instead of a statement??) Why are agreements around the transfer of dragons any different than agreements on nest renting or studding, which people ARE (apparently) still allowed to stipulate conditions for?
If a buyer can do whatever they want with a dragon they buy (and rightly so!) then I feel like a seller should be able to dictate who they sell to by any criteria they choose. I'd much rather the focus be on harassment itself than simply disallowing players the freedom to engage with each other on whatever terms they agree upon.
Alestrius wrote on 2016-05-21:
Edit: I guess the tl;dr of what I'm asking on point two -- if both buyer and seller agree on conditions explicitly stated at the time of sale during private transactions not through the AH, is this still okay, or does that constitute harassment?
@Alestrius
The update states that conditions cannot be present even in private messages.
@Aequorin Following up on the question above, the ambiguity of "play how the seller wants" as the defining factor here is tripping me up. What does that even mean? I get that making stipulations around exalting is out, that much is clear. But there are all kinds of conditions one might make around the sale or transfer of a dragon. What conditions constitute dictating how another person plays the game and what don't?
I dunno, this kind of smacks of babysitting to me, for the site to say that a seller and receiver can't decide the conditions of a dragon transfer ever, in any form. (Unless, I suppose, the person selling now phrases it in the form of a question instead of a statement??) Why are agreements around the transfer of dragons any different than agreements on nest renting or studding, which people ARE (apparently) still allowed to stipulate conditions for?
If a buyer can do whatever they want with a dragon they buy (and rightly so!) then I feel like a seller should be able to dictate who they sell to by any criteria they choose. I'd much rather the focus be on harassment itself than simply disallowing players the freedom to engage with each other on whatever terms they agree upon.
@SillyShades
When you say once someone purchases your art, it's theirs - I do hope you don't mean that they own the copyright as well!
It varies a bit from country to country but in the majority of places, you own an unspoken, automatic copyright upon completion of any artwork. What the buyer purchases is the right to hold that copy. That does not mean they have the right to mass produce, edit, claim ownership, etc... though they are allowed to resell at any price they wish, because they're only selling the right to hold that particular copy.
In that sense, it's logical to treat accents here the same way. I just wanted to clarify a bit of that copyright info if you weren't aware (if you are, my apologies for making assumptions!), because as a fellow artist I'd hate to see you unwillingly allow someone to use your art in some illegal way simply because you thought they were allowed to. If you let them, that's another story though! It's all up to you because unless you sign a contract specifically selling the copyright to a piece of work, that's yours no matter how many people buy copies or resell it. c:
When you say once someone purchases your art, it's theirs - I do hope you don't mean that they own the copyright as well!
It varies a bit from country to country but in the majority of places, you own an unspoken, automatic copyright upon completion of any artwork. What the buyer purchases is the right to hold that copy. That does not mean they have the right to mass produce, edit, claim ownership, etc... though they are allowed to resell at any price they wish, because they're only selling the right to hold that particular copy.
In that sense, it's logical to treat accents here the same way. I just wanted to clarify a bit of that copyright info if you weren't aware (if you are, my apologies for making assumptions!), because as a fellow artist I'd hate to see you unwillingly allow someone to use your art in some illegal way simply because you thought they were allowed to. If you let them, that's another story though! It's all up to you because unless you sign a contract specifically selling the copyright to a piece of work, that's yours no matter how many people buy copies or resell it. c:
@SillyShades
When you say once someone purchases your art, it's theirs - I do hope you don't mean that they own the copyright as well!
It varies a bit from country to country but in the majority of places, you own an unspoken, automatic copyright upon completion of any artwork. What the buyer purchases is the right to hold that copy. That does not mean they have the right to mass produce, edit, claim ownership, etc... though they are allowed to resell at any price they wish, because they're only selling the right to hold that particular copy.
In that sense, it's logical to treat accents here the same way. I just wanted to clarify a bit of that copyright info if you weren't aware (if you are, my apologies for making assumptions!), because as a fellow artist I'd hate to see you unwillingly allow someone to use your art in some illegal way simply because you thought they were allowed to. If you let them, that's another story though! It's all up to you because unless you sign a contract specifically selling the copyright to a piece of work, that's yours no matter how many people buy copies or resell it. c:
When you say once someone purchases your art, it's theirs - I do hope you don't mean that they own the copyright as well!
It varies a bit from country to country but in the majority of places, you own an unspoken, automatic copyright upon completion of any artwork. What the buyer purchases is the right to hold that copy. That does not mean they have the right to mass produce, edit, claim ownership, etc... though they are allowed to resell at any price they wish, because they're only selling the right to hold that particular copy.
In that sense, it's logical to treat accents here the same way. I just wanted to clarify a bit of that copyright info if you weren't aware (if you are, my apologies for making assumptions!), because as a fellow artist I'd hate to see you unwillingly allow someone to use your art in some illegal way simply because you thought they were allowed to. If you let them, that's another story though! It's all up to you because unless you sign a contract specifically selling the copyright to a piece of work, that's yours no matter how many people buy copies or resell it. c:
[quote name="Tallypop" date=2016-05-21 19:21:25]
[quote name="Alestrius" date=2016-05-21 15:38:06]
Edit: I guess the tl;dr of what I'm asking on point two -- if both buyer and seller agree on conditions explicitly stated at the time of sale during private transactions not through the AH, is this still okay, or does that constitute harassment?
[/quote]
Alestrius
The update states that conditions cannot be present even in private messages.
Aequorin Following up on the question above, the ambiguity of "play how the seller wants" as the defining factor here is tripping me up. What does that even mean? I get that making stipulations around exalting is out, that much is clear. But there are all kinds of conditions one might make around the sale or transfer of a dragon. What conditions constitute dictating how another person plays the game and what don't?
I dunno, this kind of smacks of babysitting to me, for the site to say that a seller and receiver can't decide the conditions of a dragon transfer ever, in any form. (Unless, I suppose, the person selling now phrases it in the form of a question instead of a statement??) Why are agreements around the transfer of dragons any different than agreements on nest renting or studding, which people ARE (apparently) still allowed to stipulate conditions for?
If a buyer can do whatever they want with a dragon they buy (and rightly so!) then I feel like a seller should be able to dictate who they sell to by any criteria they choose. I'd much rather the focus be on harassment itself than simply disallowing players the freedom to engage with each other on whatever terms they agree upon.
[/quote]
@Tallypop Dragon lending (which includes studding and nest rentals) aren't supported transactions and if the player agreement falls through the admins will not intervine although you are encouraged to report bad deals as the admins may punish repeat offenders.
[quote=Terms of Service]Item or dragon "lending" is not a supported transaction. The Flight Rising development and moderation team will not be able to assist in cases where a lent item or dragon is not returned, and these types of deals are conducted at the user's own risk. To avoid fradulent trades, please use the Auction House or Crossroads.[/quote]
Tallypop wrote on 2016-05-21:
Alestrius wrote on 2016-05-21:
Edit: I guess the tl;dr of what I'm asking on point two -- if both buyer and seller agree on conditions explicitly stated at the time of sale during private transactions not through the AH, is this still okay, or does that constitute harassment?
Alestrius
The update states that conditions cannot be present even in private messages.
Aequorin Following up on the question above, the ambiguity of "play how the seller wants" as the defining factor here is tripping me up. What does that even mean? I get that making stipulations around exalting is out, that much is clear. But there are all kinds of conditions one might make around the sale or transfer of a dragon. What conditions constitute dictating how another person plays the game and what don't?
I dunno, this kind of smacks of babysitting to me, for the site to say that a seller and receiver can't decide the conditions of a dragon transfer ever, in any form. (Unless, I suppose, the person selling now phrases it in the form of a question instead of a statement??) Why are agreements around the transfer of dragons any different than agreements on nest renting or studding, which people ARE (apparently) still allowed to stipulate conditions for?
If a buyer can do whatever they want with a dragon they buy (and rightly so!) then I feel like a seller should be able to dictate who they sell to by any criteria they choose. I'd much rather the focus be on harassment itself than simply disallowing players the freedom to engage with each other on whatever terms they agree upon.
@Tallypop Dragon lending (which includes studding and nest rentals) aren't supported transactions and if the player agreement falls through the admins will not intervine although you are encouraged to report bad deals as the admins may punish repeat offenders.
Terms of Service wrote:
Item or dragon "lending" is not a supported transaction. The Flight Rising development and moderation team will not be able to assist in cases where a lent item or dragon is not returned, and these types of deals are conducted at the user's own risk. To avoid fradulent trades, please use the Auction House or Crossroads.
@Zillenoise Yes, I'm aware. That's what I meant with this:
[quote]The idea that you control what is done with the work after sale beyond the moral rights of the artist (the principle that the copyright always remains with you and you should always get credit for your work) is something that really arose with digital media and the prevalence of DRM.[/quote]
...though i admit I wrote the sentence really poorly!
Copyright of creative works applies immediately upon creation of the work, and is never transferred [i]unless[/i] there's a contract that explicitly says it is. That basically never happens with paintings or commissions -- it only comes up with commercial artwork.
I'm glad to see you making sure that point gets spread around. Lots of artists (not just visual artists) are confused about that, and think that it's easier to lose copyright than it is, or that you have to register it for it to count. Copyright is automatic and you can't accidentally get rid of it!
@Zillenoise Yes, I'm aware. That's what I meant with this:
...though i admit I wrote the sentence really poorly!
Copyright of creative works applies immediately upon creation of the work, and is never transferred unless there's a contract that explicitly says it is. That basically never happens with paintings or commissions -- it only comes up with commercial artwork.
I'm glad to see you making sure that point gets spread around. Lots of artists (not just visual artists) are confused about that, and think that it's easier to lose copyright than it is, or that you have to register it for it to count. Copyright is automatic and you can't accidentally get rid of it!
Quote:
The idea that you control what is done with the work after sale beyond the moral rights of the artist (the principle that the copyright always remains with you and you should always get credit for your work) is something that really arose with digital media and the prevalence of DRM.
...though i admit I wrote the sentence really poorly!
Copyright of creative works applies immediately upon creation of the work, and is never transferred unless there's a contract that explicitly says it is. That basically never happens with paintings or commissions -- it only comes up with commercial artwork.
I'm glad to see you making sure that point gets spread around. Lots of artists (not just visual artists) are confused about that, and think that it's easier to lose copyright than it is, or that you have to register it for it to count. Copyright is automatic and you can't accidentally get rid of it!
Good Luck Loddie!
And welcome new mods!
:) its wonderful to look back at the top threads from the carnivals, though I don't mingle with the community at all besides posting on mod update threads for the website. I don't mind, because it can bring back memories, good or bad, rough and tough or smooth and nice.
It depends on the outlook you have if/when you have encountered these threads.
And welcome new mods!
:) its wonderful to look back at the top threads from the carnivals, though I don't mingle with the community at all besides posting on mod update threads for the website. I don't mind, because it can bring back memories, good or bad, rough and tough or smooth and nice.
It depends on the outlook you have if/when you have encountered these threads.
Good Luck Loddie!
And welcome new mods!
:) its wonderful to look back at the top threads from the carnivals, though I don't mingle with the community at all besides posting on mod update threads for the website. I don't mind, because it can bring back memories, good or bad, rough and tough or smooth and nice.
It depends on the outlook you have if/when you have encountered these threads.
And welcome new mods!
:) its wonderful to look back at the top threads from the carnivals, though I don't mingle with the community at all besides posting on mod update threads for the website. I don't mind, because it can bring back memories, good or bad, rough and tough or smooth and nice.
It depends on the outlook you have if/when you have encountered these threads.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx@dearagony || it/its || +3 fr
[quote name="Tallypop" date=2016-05-21 19:21:25]
[quote name="Alestrius" date=2016-05-21 15:38:06]
Edit: I guess the tl;dr of what I'm asking on point two -- if both buyer and seller agree on conditions explicitly stated at the time of sale during private transactions not through the AH, is this still okay, or does that constitute harassment?
[/quote]
@Alestrius
The update states that conditions cannot be present even in private messages.
@Aequorin Following up on the question above, the ambiguity of "play how the seller wants" as the defining factor here is tripping me up. What does that even mean? I get that making stipulations around exalting is out, that much is clear. But there are all kinds of conditions one might make around the sale or transfer of a dragon. What conditions constitute dictating how another person plays the game and what don't?
I dunno, this kind of smacks of babysitting to me, for the site to say that a seller and receiver can't decide the conditions of a dragon transfer ever, in any form. (Unless, I suppose, the person selling now phrases it in the form of a question instead of a statement??) Why are agreements around the transfer of dragons any different than agreements on nest renting or studding, which people ARE (apparently) still allowed to stipulate conditions for?
If a buyer can do whatever they want with a dragon they buy (and rightly so!) then I feel like a seller should be able to dictate who they sell to by any criteria they choose. I'd much rather the focus be on harassment itself than simply disallowing players the freedom to engage with each other on whatever terms they agree upon.
[/quote]
I'm not sure where you're getting that the update says no conditions? It says you can [i]ask[/i] (not demand) someone not to exalt a dragon. I don't care about the issue, but if I did, I can refuse to sell/give my dragons to anyone as I chose if I believe they wouldn't honor my wishes. What I can't do is blacklist that person. I can't control the play of another player. If they choose not to follow my request, they're within their rights under the rules.
Its a little shady on the part of the person -- if they specifically agreed to my request and then ignored it -- I won't do business with the person again.
Most of the time I don't even see the notes in the dragon descriptions - I have my screen font set on a bigger size and I don't see the whole page, so if I did exalt one -- I apologize!
Tallypop wrote on 2016-05-21:
Alestrius wrote on 2016-05-21:
Edit: I guess the tl;dr of what I'm asking on point two -- if both buyer and seller agree on conditions explicitly stated at the time of sale during private transactions not through the AH, is this still okay, or does that constitute harassment?
@Alestrius
The update states that conditions cannot be present even in private messages.
@Aequorin Following up on the question above, the ambiguity of "play how the seller wants" as the defining factor here is tripping me up. What does that even mean? I get that making stipulations around exalting is out, that much is clear. But there are all kinds of conditions one might make around the sale or transfer of a dragon. What conditions constitute dictating how another person plays the game and what don't?
I dunno, this kind of smacks of babysitting to me, for the site to say that a seller and receiver can't decide the conditions of a dragon transfer ever, in any form. (Unless, I suppose, the person selling now phrases it in the form of a question instead of a statement??) Why are agreements around the transfer of dragons any different than agreements on nest renting or studding, which people ARE (apparently) still allowed to stipulate conditions for?
If a buyer can do whatever they want with a dragon they buy (and rightly so!) then I feel like a seller should be able to dictate who they sell to by any criteria they choose. I'd much rather the focus be on harassment itself than simply disallowing players the freedom to engage with each other on whatever terms they agree upon.
I'm not sure where you're getting that the update says no conditions? It says you can ask (not demand) someone not to exalt a dragon. I don't care about the issue, but if I did, I can refuse to sell/give my dragons to anyone as I chose if I believe they wouldn't honor my wishes. What I can't do is blacklist that person. I can't control the play of another player. If they choose not to follow my request, they're within their rights under the rules.
Its a little shady on the part of the person -- if they specifically agreed to my request and then ignored it -- I won't do business with the person again.
Most of the time I don't even see the notes in the dragon descriptions - I have my screen font set on a bigger size and I don't see the whole page, so if I did exalt one -- I apologize!
Hm I knew there was a controversy over exalting. What I didn't know was that so many players were getting harassed by those giving the dragons. I did know about the issue of the givers getting harassed though. However, I think this is only going to increase the later now. It's starting to feel like Wajas all over again...
I'm not against nor saying that players should not have the right to profit from dragons they buy / receive. But what concerns me is the umbrella of what is considered harassment. Is for someone to routinely takes multiple dragons (not necessarily at the same time) under false pretense included? Aka, receiving free dragons with the only intend to exalt from another player whom is aiming the free dragons for to be enjoyed by a player before exalted / re-sold.
Hm I knew there was a controversy over exalting. What I didn't know was that so many players were getting harassed by those giving the dragons. I did know about the issue of the givers getting harassed though. However, I think this is only going to increase the later now. It's starting to feel like Wajas all over again...
I'm not against nor saying that players should not have the right to profit from dragons they buy / receive. But what concerns me is the umbrella of what is considered harassment. Is for someone to routinely takes multiple dragons (not necessarily at the same time) under false pretense included? Aka, receiving free dragons with the only intend to exalt from another player whom is aiming the free dragons for to be enjoyed by a player before exalted / re-sold.